What part of “I know he’d listen” and “I’m not sure it’s something I know how to share” did people NOT get in the last episode?
Seriously, which part??
Stop comparing Alistair to Lucifer.
Dean was not made specifically to be a vessel through which Alistair would destroy the world- so no- it’s not the same thing, and Lucifer is…well…he’s Lucifer. He’s the big bad. Sorry for telling it like it is but if you haven’t worked that out yet I just feel bad for you.
This is not me getting into the weird Stan wars of my fave has it worse than yours wahwahhwahhh it’s just being objective about canon, like how I was objective about how Dean having Mary back was WAY different and way more of a big deal for Dean as a character than it was for Sam in a lot of ways because of his pre-existing relationship with his mother.
Stop throwing Sam under a bus because he can’t talk to Dean, and stop pretending that if it was the other way around you wouldn’t be completely on board- because its utter nonsense and you only need to have been in the fandom about a month to know that.
Sam knows he can talk to his brother. He fucking said it, out loud.
Just listen to yourselves and cut the guy a break the same as you expect everyone to cut Dean a break when he does something ‘problematic’.
All I’m hearing is ‘Sam is bad’ or ‘bad writing’ but none of you are having the sense to even pay the slightest bit of attention to what Sam has even said. It’s not the fault of ‘bad writing’ if you’re not even reading it all the way through/ just not daring to think ‘maybe I’m ignoring the facts so I can hear what I wanna hear.’
I’ve always been struck by the differences in Sam and Dean’s experiences in Hell.
Dean was tortured with the purpose of making him break and start torturing others. Every day that he was tortured was a day that he was choosing his own suffering over others – he got to hold onto some agency and his sense of heroism (and my personal opinion is that a lot of his completely warranted and understandable issues stem from giving up that self-identity). And I’m putting it out here right now: there is no way he could have held out for eternity. That is not weakness, that’s just how it goes. Eventually, with all of eternity before him, he was going to break at some point.
Sam was tortured with the purpose of making him suffer. That was the sole purpose. He didn’t have a hope of it ending. He was not offered a way to escape it. He made his choice when he jumped into the Cage, dragging Lucifer in with him.
Dean’s experience in Hell created issues in him that Sam can’t really get: knowing that he started torturing others to spare himself the pain, knowing that he had started to enjoy it (at least I remember him saying that back in S4). Sam’s experience in Hell has created issues in him that Dean can’t really get, too. This is not a failing on either of their parts.
Another factor that is important is “parallel reactions.” It can be really hard to open up to someone who is really close, because you can feel like you’re responsible for their reactions. Maybe Sam doesn’t talk to Dean because Sam is barely holding himself together, and doesn’t feel like he can handle Dean’s reaction to his trauma on top of that. It’s not an uncommon thing.
Exactly!!!
The thing is, Dean is Sam’s hero. He is his absolute number one, and there’s no changing that. People make out like Sam doesn’t love him, that he consistently puts himself first- but I think he only even does that because it’s what Dean does and on some level he ends up copying Dean (or at least trying to!)
His issues with his own father stem from the fact that he clearly loves Dean more than him!! Because John was Dean’s hero and Dean was Sam’s- and because John didn’t always give Dean what he needed, Sam resented him until he was old enough to understand why. If you watch the way that Sam grieves his father back in season two it’s obvious that there’s a lot of guilt there, and it probably comes from the fact that he never loved him the way he loves his brother- he never chose him as a protector, and he never wanted to be like him because in his eyes- he made Dean feel like he wasn’t enough, and Sam wanted to be like Dean. To some degree Sam’s entire identity is woven out of rejecting the things that John likes! He’s not really into classic rock- he’s not really into cars, he’s sensitive, he rejects the hunting life and he isn’t *that much* of a drinker. I think it’s subconsciously deliberate even though he’s probably not aware of it on any level.
Sam admitting to his hero that he feels like they’re helpless against his own personal villain (who also happens to be the actual devil) is probably too much to admit- because opening all the way up about that to Dean and showing Dean his weaknesses will probably crush any semblance of hope that he does have left.
I don’t think Sam is wrong for this, and I don’t think he is ‘shutting him out’ the way people are accusing him- and as someone who has suffered from depression I frankly find that entire argument absurd. It’s like saying that you don’t love your Mom because you won’t tell her in graphic detail about your experiences of suicidal ideation- when actually you’re just trying to protect someone you love from the inner termoil you will give them by letting them know how sick you are. Sometimes when you have depression you don’t feel the need to pass it on- and you worry that you will! I’d rather talk to someone else who has experienced it and who’s not close to me so that like you said- I don’t feel close enough to them to be responsible for their reaction.
I think Dean is being really great about all of this- I really do. I genuinely think that he becomes more emotionally mature with each season, and he isn’t handling this the only way he knows how -he’s actually empathising with his brother. Ironically I think that Dean will be able to relate to Sam more having known he can lose all hope too. He’s far less judgemental of Sam than he used to be in the early seasons- he takes a breath, even when he’s angry he is patient enough with him to let him explain himself. Dean has come a long way as a character and that’s why it kind of pisses me off when people who make out like they’re fans condemn his more empathetic behaviour toward Sam. It’s like they never hear Sam’s apologies to Dean *because reasons* and so when Dean is soft on his brother he’s reacting to ‘evil fandom template Sam’ and cutting him a break when he doesn’t deserve one instead of ‘actual Sam’ who does.
I completely agree with you that Dean’s caving to the torture in hell wasn’t weakness- anyone would have. I definitely think that Sam’s very selfish reaction to that back in the day came from his utter fear. I’m not excusing what he said to Dean because it must have crippled him to hear it- and it 100% wasn’t a constructive thing to say. But all he was hearing was ‘even my hero who is stronger than me is too weak to deal with this’ and so he lashed out, like scared people do. Luckily he has come a long way since that and I have no doubt in my mind that he still feels guilty over it. Sam holds a grudge against himself worse than any Dean Stan because deep down he’s the most obnoxious Dean stan of them all. Haha! I do think he should probably forgive himself for a lot of things though- but he’s a tortured soul so he won’t.
We’re all over reacting to a single scene anyway, because Dean wasn’t able to instantly snap Sam out of what is probably years and years worth of concealed depression. Sam is only admitting it now because he has only just admitted it to himself! He pushed it down because the world kept almost ending. People are making out like his behaviour is out of nowhere and it just goes to show how little they understand him.
Just yesterday I unfollowed a mutual because somehow they went from a dean leaning bibro, which is fine (Im a Sam leaning bibro) to a Sam hating Dean stan, all from what appears to be the fact that Sam cant talk to Dean (yet) about this problem. That somehow snowballed into Sam may offer a shoulder to Dean, but never actually gives it, he just patronizes him and tells him they have to keep working, which is basically the standard go to, first response they both have to each others depression, and then the topic turned into Dean having a worse time in Hell than Sam did and I just couldnt deal anymore.
Sam said he doesnt really talk about it, not even to Dean, he knows he’d listen, but its not something he even knows how to share. That says volumes! It isnt a simple matter of going to Dean and saying “I saw Lucifer’s true form, and it keeps me awake at night and makes me feel helpless” which would probably be pretty easy to say, but after it comes out, theres going to be questions, and reactions, and Dean wanting to fix something he probably cant fix. And this isnt like having been cut on, or assaulted, or burned by fire, because Dean has been through this, other people have been through these things too, but this is something, only Sam has ever gone through, (and lived to talk about it anyway) until now Rowena says he did it to her as well. And then Sam feels scared and helpless, which has to make him question his own ability to be a hunter, So for now hes covering it up with greif and worry, which are also valid feelings, but are feeding his feelings of helplessness because they’re at a loss for a plan.
I always cut these guys some slack, they live terrible lives, and could be psychopaths but theyre not, theyre just being crushed beneath all this weight and having meltdowns.
ALL OF THIS!! Seriously. This just adds to my previous point of why Sam doesn’t talk about the cage to anyone, including Dean. Neither brother are at fault for anything that has happened to them in regarding their time in Hell. and nobody should be giving them grief about how they deal with it.
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